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227] HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Petition from the East India Company

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[223

excepted, should be applied and disposed of the Petitioners, their bond debt always of in the manner therein mentioned as by the said act, relation being thereunto had, notice required by the said act of parliamay more at large appear; and that the ment hath been given by the Speaker of the House, for determining the exclusive trade of the Petitioners on the 10th day of April, 1814; and that, since the said act was passed, further territorial acquisitions,

Lord 1811, upon the expiration of the said three years, and upon payment made to the Petitioners of any sum or sums which, under the provisions of any act of that present session of parliament, should or might, upon the expiration of the said three years, become payable to the Petitioners by the public, according to the true intent and meaning of such act, then and from thenceforth and not before or sooner, the said right title and interest of the Petitioners to the whole sole and ex-yielding a large revenue, have been

clusive trade to the said East Indies and obtained by the Petitioners, and such parts aforesaid should cease and deter-acquisitions have been annexed to the several governments of the Petitioners in the East Indies, and sundry debts, mentioned in or referred to by the said to a large extent, beyond what are act, have been incurred by the Petitioners, in the defence and protection of the of wars in which the British nation has British possessions in India, and by reason that such debts bear interest, and some of been engaged with European powers; them are due in the East Indies, and others of them have been discharged by the Petitioners, by means of money raised on thority of parliament; and that, by virtheir credit in this country, under the aupart of such India debt, further sums, to a tue of the terms of the obligations for other large amount, will be payable shortly in necessary for the Petitioners to raise a furthis country, for which purpose it will be ther sum of money here; and that the system established by the said act, for the government of the territorial acquisitions in the East Indies, for the management of the revenues thereof, and for the general conduct of the affairs of the Petitioners, hath been approved by experience; but of the profits arising from the territorial the appropriations made by the said act revenues in India, and of the profits of the Petitioners at home, appear to the Petitioners to be inapplicable to the present state of the Indian debts and resources, and that the Petitioners believe that and of the concerns of the Petitioners; it is undeniable that the exclusive trade carried on by the Petitioners has been a great positive advantage to the nation; and although they do not presume to state, public benefit would accrue from its being as an incontrovertible fact, that greater continued in its present state than from its being any further opened, yet the Petitioners do venture humbly, but confidently to assure the House, that the trade with China could not be opened in any degree

mine; and it was thereby further enacted, that nothing in the said proviso last thereinbefore contained, or in any proviso in the said act of the 9th year of king William the third, or in the said charter of the 5th day of September in the 10th year of his reign, or in any other act or charter contained, should extend or be construed to extend to determine the corporation of the Petitioners, or to hinder prevent or preclude the Petitioners or their successors from carrying on, at all times after such determination of the right to the sole whole and exclusive trade as aforesaid, a free trade to in and from the East Indies and parts aforesaid with all or any part of their joint stock in trade goods merchandizes estate and effects, in common with other the subjects of his majesty, his heirs and successors, trading to in and from the said parts or limits; and by the said act it is enacted, that for and during so long time as the Petitioners should be entitled to the whole sole and exclusive trade and traffic into and from the East Indies and other places within the limits of their charter, subject to the provisions regulations and limitations in that act contained, the clear profits arising from the said territorial acquisitions and revenues in India, after defraying the charges and expences of collecting the same, should be applied and disposed of to the uses and purposes therein mentioned and expressed; and also that, during the continuance of the exclusive trade to the Petitioners, the net proceeds of their sales of goods at home, with the duties and allowances arising by private trade and all other profits of the Petitioners in Great Britain, after providing for the payment of bills of exchange then already accepted by the Petitioners, as the same should become due, and for the current payment of other debts interest and other outgoings charges and expences

without extreme danger; and that, if it should not be seen fit to enlarge the term now held by the Petitioners in the whole of the trade which they now enjoy with out qualification, the Petitioners are ready to submit to such regulations as shall be just, and as parliament in its wisdom shall enact, for the conduct of the commercial intercourse of his majesty's subjects with those places which are within the exclusive limits granted to the Petitioners; and that, on account of the length and variety of the matters necessary to be considered and prepared in relation to the subject of this Petition, the Petitioners were unable to prepare a Petition, praying leave to bring in a Bill or Bills relative to the Indian territories and trade, until the time limited | for presenting Petitions for private Bills was expired; and praying, that leave may be given to present a Petition to the House, for bringing in a Bill or Bills for continuing the possession government and management of the territorial acquisitions in the East Indies in the Petitioners, subject to regulation, and for altering the appropriations of the profits arising from the Indian revenues; and for enabling the Petitioners to raise such sums of money, or to contract such pecuniary obligations as their affairs may require, in respect of the payment in this country of debts originally contracted in India; and for set tling the trade to the East Indies and China, and other places, from the Cape of Bona Esperanza to the Streights of Magellan, or that the Petitioners may have such other relief as their case may require."

Ordered to lie upon the table.

On the Motion that leave be given to present a Petition as desired,

Lord A. Hamilton rose, not to oppose the motion, but to ask a few questions of the right hon, the Chancellor of the Exchequer with respect to transactions of public notoriety, which had taken place since the House last met. At a meeting of the proprietors of East India stock, it was asserted, that the right hon. gentleman had been understood to have pledged himself to four points-first, an exclusive trade to China: secondly, the supply of whatever monies might be wanted for the service of the company, for two years; thirdly, the confining all Asiatic importations to the port of London; and lastly, the giving up to the Company the controul of the army in India. If

the right hon. gentleman had not given pledges on these points, he should be glad to hear him contradict what had gone abroad; but if he had pledged himself, he could conceive nothing more disrespectful to the House, than thus to bind himself to measures without previously laying them before parliament.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought that nothing that had passed at the East India House, or between himself and the directors, could at all fetter the proceedings of parliament. He had thought it his duty, before he brought a subject of such importance before that House, to form his own opinion on it, and preparatory to submitting a measure to parliament, some correspondence with the directors of the East India Company had to him appeared necessary. Before a Bill was brought in on the subject, he had thought it proper to communicate to them what was the bearing of his mind on certain propositions involved in the question. That he had done so he thought was no mark of disrepect to the House, and no breach of his public duty. With respect to any particular opinion that he might have expressed, if it should appear that he had taken an erroneous view of the subject, the sanction of the House could be withheld, and the propositions he might submit to them, it would be for them to reject; but at present he did not conceive he had a right to be called upon by the noble lord, or by the House, to state what those opinions were, or at all to discuss the subject, when they could not go on with the discussion, so as to make it lead to any practical result. He hoped the House would not call for his opinion on this subject, and that the noble lord would think it no disrespect to him that at present he declined to reply to the question he had put. He would now only state that he had taken a most erroneous view of the subject, if it was a breach of duty on his part to communicate with the directors of the East India Company, or if it was disrespectful to parliament to endeavour to form an opinion himself on the merits of the question, before he brought it under their consideration.

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Lord A. Hamilton complained of having been misrepresented by the right hon. gentleman. He did not say that he was wrong in forming any opinion he pleased, or communicating with the East India Company on the extension of their charter; he merely wanted to know, whether he, as minister, had made the pledges before alluded to.

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General Gascoyne said, that he should suffer no opportunity to pass without pressing upon the House the injustice of the regulations said to be connected with the renewal of the charter. Those regulations were injurious to the out-ports, and directly contrary to the articles of the Union with Ireland. He never could conceive that it could enter into the contemplation of government to make all ships coming from Asia discharge their return cargoes in the port of London. To-morrow he should make a motion, founded on the papers made public in another quarter. He should, however, previously move, that those papers be laid before the House. Mr. Howarth complained of the delay which had taken place in the negociations between the Board of Controul and the Directors. From the 13th of February, 1809, for two years and ten months, it appeared that no communication had been had between them.

Mr. Wallace could not give an official answer to the question of the last speaker. He, however, proceeded to explain that which had been noticed, and was understood to say, that though he did not know that any official correspondence had taken place within the period alluded to, yet there had been communications and discussions on the subject. Some delay had occurred in consequence of its being thought desirable to wait for the Report of the Committee on the Finances of the East India Company. With respect to what had been said by the noble lord of the concessions which had been made by his right hon. friend, he thought they were answered by those very proceedings on the report on which he had founded his statement, as it had there been stated, that all was conceded on the part of the company, while nothing was secured in return. The papers for which the hon. general intended to move, were papers to the production of which he did not know that any objection would be made, but he thought the motion at present might be premature.

The Petition was then presented and read; containing the like allegations as the last preceding Petition; and praying, "That leave may be given to bring in a Bill or Bills for continuing the possession, government, and management of the territorial acquisitions in the East Indies in the Petitioners, subject to regulation, and

for altering the appropriations of the profits arising from the Indian revenues, and for enabling the Petitioners to raise such sums of money, or to contract such pecuniary obligations, as their affairs may require, in respect of the payment in this country of debts originally contracted in India, and for settling the trade to the East Indies and China, and other places, from the cape of Bona Esperanza to the streights of Magellan, or that the Petitioners may have such other relief as their case may require."

Mr. Creevey begged to ask, what course it was intended to follow on this occasion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that the Petition would be referred to a Committee of the whole House, and that certain Resolutions would be proposed to the Committee.

General Gascoyne moved for Copies of all Correspondence which had taken place between the Board of Controul and the Directors of the East India Company, respecting their present charter.

Mr. Wallace had no objection to the production of the papers.

The Papers were ordered accordingly, and will be found in the APPENDIX to this Volume.

SCARCITY OF PROVISIONS IN IRELAND.] Sir John Newport, after adverting to the scarcity of grain and other provisions which existed in many districts of Ireland, and to the necessity of preventing the distillation from grain in that country, moved for a general return of all the grain, malt, meal, and flour exported from Ireland, from the beginning of the present year to the latest period at which the same could be made out.

Mr. Wellesley Pole did not rise to oppose the motion, but to state that he had not altered the opinion he had already expressed on this subject. He was convinced that there was no real scarcity of provisions throughout Ireland. The apparent deficiency was merely local, and arose from exports; but, at the same time, he allowed that it was the duty of government to allay the fears, however unfounded, which the people of Ireland entertained. With this view he intended to move, tomorrow, for leave to bring in a Bill to prevent the exportation abroad of Irish made spirits; and he also intended to made move in the Committee of Ways and Means, for an additional duty on those spirits imported to any part of the emover the comparative price of potatoes, and other articles of first necessity, in various counties from the 14th of January to the 8th of March, and concluded with as serting, that the advance in price had been

pire. The right hon. gentleman then went | Ireland, it was to be considered, that if we

but trifling.

stopt them where they were legal, we gave advantage to those which were illegal; which, while it would be no saving of the quantity of human food, would in a very material degree injure the revenue.

Mr. Pole, in answer to the observations

Mr. Latouche was of opinion, that it would ❘ of Mr. Shaw, stated, that the Irish gobe expedient to take into consideration the policy of putting a temporary stop to

the distilleries.

Sir J. Newport said he had been informed, that the distillers had sent to Mr. Pole exaggerated accounts of their stocks of grain, and in confirmation of which he read part of a letter.

Mr. Shaw of Dublin said, that the alarming price of provisions in Dublin had excited a strong sensation, so much so, as to induce the magistrates to make representations on the subject to the lord lieutenant, with a view to the adoption of some measure of relief. He agreed that the stopping of the distilleries now would be unjust, but thought they might be prevented from commencing again, as usual, in September, and that they ought to be obliged to suspend their work until the January following. Such a measure would, in his opinion, be sufficient to relieve the apprehension of scarcity.

Mr. Parnell, from all the information which he had been able to procure, was not of opinion that any sound apprehension could be entertained of a scarcity. It had been stated to him, that in many parts potatoes were still sold at 4d. per stone, which certainly could not be called dear. The fact, he believed, was, that the deficiencies were local, and fully compensated by the abundance of other parts of the kingdom. The evil, he conceived, was one that would naturally remedy itself, unless this effect should be counteracted by the activity of magistrates, or the government.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, the subject was of the highest importance, and if there was really a prospect of scarcity in Ireland, it deserved their immediate consideration. He hoped the House would keep in mind, that the information they were possessed of was at present very defective. It appeared that in many parts there was great abundance, and the mischief chiefly arose from the difficulty of transporting provisions from one part to another. The House would therefore be cautious how they stopt the exportation of provisions from Ireland to England. As to the stoppage of the distilleries in

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vernment had received no information which could lead them to think there was a general scarcity. On the contrary, his opinion was, that there was plenty of grain, and that the increase of price and consequent alarm was owing to certain outrages and speculations which had taken place. If there was apprehension any app a general scarcity, he could assure the hon. gentleman that government would take any step which might be necessary, even were it the total stoppage of the distilleries; but as that was not the case, he thought they should not proceed to do what must injure the revenue, and the agriculture of the country.

The motion was then agreed to.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, April 8.

PEASANTRY OF IRELAND.) Earl Stanhope adverted to the situation of the peasantry of Ireland, who, he stated, were by the operation of the tythe laws (as was also sometimes the case in this country) compelled to pay rent two, three or four times over. For the purpose of relieving them from this distressing situation he had prepared a Bill, which he proposed to present to their lordships tomorrow se'nnight; and therefore moved, that the lords be summoned for that day.-Ordered.

TOLERATION.] Earl Stanhope also observed, that he wished to call their lordships' attention to another very important subject. With respect to persons holding certain religious tenets, there were two opinions, the one that they should be admitted to hold civil offices, and the other that they should be disqualified from holding offices; but both parties were agreed in the justice of toleration. Upon this latter point, however, in consequence of some recent circumstances, many Protestant Dissenters, and even some members of the established Church, were liable to much oppression, to relieve them from which, he had also prepared a Bill, but thought it better not to name a day for presenting it until after the discussion on the claims of his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in Ireland.

EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.] The Earl of Liverpool presented a petition from the magistrates and council of Paisley, praying for the opening of the East India trade, which was ordered to lie on the table.

The Earl of Lauderdale gave notice of a motion for to-morrow, for the Correspondence between the Directors of the East India Company and government respecting the renewal of the Charter, and also for certain papers respecting the transfer of the troops of the East India Company to government in 1794.

BANK OF ENGLAND.] The Earl of Lauderdale, after adverting to the Bill now in progress in the House of Commons, relative to Bank notes, also gave notice of his intention to move for information which he considered of the utmost importance with a view to that Bill, in order to ascertain the profits made by the Bank of England since 1797, by those measures which | had brought distress on the rest of the country. His object was to have an account of the price of Bank Stock in 1797, and the average price in every half year since; the increase of dividends to the proprietors of Bank Stock during the same period; and the amount of bonusses granted to the same proprietors, during the same period. He believed it would be found, that the Bank of England had derived an additional profit of 15 or 16 millions by these measures, by the operation of which the rest of the country had been so much distressed.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Wednesday, April 8.

PETITIONS FROM PAISLEY, SWANSEA AND BIRMINGHAM RESPECTING THE RENEWAL OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.) A Petition of the manufacturers merchants traders and other inhabitants of the town of Paisley, was presented and read; setting forth,

"That, as the Charter of the East India Company will expire in the course of two years, the Petitioners most respectfully presume to express their sentiments on a subject peculiarly interesting to that populous and manufacturing district of the • country, and to the nation in general;

and that, in the present depressed state of the manufactures and commerce of that part of the United Kingdom, every measure of assistance that the House can afford ought, in the Petitioners' humble apprehension, to be manifested and exerted; and they rely, with confidence, that no considerations of a partial nature will be permitted to sacrifice and set aside their most serious and important interests; and that, in order to render such assistance effectual, it is the Petitioners' firm opinion that it is necessary and expedient to discontinue the commercial monopoly of the East India Company, on the expiration of their existing Charter, as thereby new and extensive markets will be opened for reception of British manufactures, which will render this country more independent of all commercial relations with the continent of Europe, and contribute to the increase of the financial resources of the empire; and that the present monopoly of the East India Company affords renewed evidence of the injurious consequences attendant upon exclusive traffic; the capital of the country, which might be beneficially embarked in trade to the East, is locked up, and thousands, who find no employment under the present narrowed system, might be actively engaged in a free and unfettered commerce: the existing monopoly too is attended with this singular and unaccountable peculiarity, that privileges are conceded to, and lucratively enjoyed by, neutral nations, which are absolutely denied to, and rigorously withheld from, the merchants of the British empire; and that the example afforded by the citizens of the United States of America must remove any doubt which can be entertained regarding the competency of British individuals to carry on an extensive commerce to the East Indies, China, and the other countries comprehended in the Charter of the East India Company; and that every port of the United Kingdom ought to be allowed the advantages of foreign trade; and that it would be unjust to confine in future the commerce of the East to the port of London; and praying the House to adopt measures for the abolition of the commercial monopoly of the East India Company, at the expiration of their present Charter."

A Petition of the merchants, manufacturers, and other inhabitants of the town and neighbourhood of Swansea, was also presented and read; setting forth,

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