ruin the country.-" But," said an hon. gentleman (Mr. Smith), "after this measure is passed, and thirty years hence, when you may not have such provident and honourable directors of the Bank as at present, the evil will increase." Why could not parliament, as they had done, continue to superintend the issues of the Bank? During the last year, they | knew the fact to be, that, so far from an increase, a diminution in the circulation had taken place, and they had no reason whatever to fear any danger from the sudden inundation of the country with bank paper during the recess. There was no danger of directors, heretofore so prudent, running all at once into a directly opposite line; there was no hazard of an indefinite issue to ruin the country in the man ner described in the histories referred to. The whole of the issues here amounted to about one-third of the annual revenue of the country paid into the Exchequer.Had they an instance like this in any history of any other nation, where, if he might use the expression, the paper currency was thrice, in the course of one year, disgorged to the government? But all this train of argument appeared to be mere idle declamation, and nothing could possibly be more absurd than to make these comparisons between things utterly dissimilar. He trusted the House and the country would therefore agree with him, that something of the kind now proposed was absolutely necessary for the protection of the subject. In framing the measure, they would, of course, direct their attention as much as possible to the prevention of evils arising from forgeries, and to save the people from being liable to receive them in payments. It appeared, from the account laid on the table, that this evil had not grown to an enormous magnitude, in comparison with the vast sum of 23 millions in circulation. The forgeries amounted, during the last eleven years, to about 9 or 10,000l. a year, including a number of foreign notes rejected at the Bank; and this was perhaps not more than a circulation to a similar extent in gold and silver would suffer. From the vast foreign expenditure in which the nation was engaged, they were, no doubt, in difficulty, which it was the object of this measure to meet in what appeared to be the most advisable way. But if they took the advice of gentlemen on the opposite side of the House, and called on the Bank to resume payments in specie, then indeed, it might justly be said, that they were throw- Mr. Ponsonby said, he had no intention of going at large into the question now, but as he had been absent during the discussions it underwent last session, and had no opportunity of delivering his sentiments at that period, he was anxious in a few words to express his firm conviction, that so far from this measure being calculated to promote the permanent interests of the country, it was calculated to bring the country to ruin. The right hon. gentleman opposite, had said that the predictions made on former occasions, when this system began, and at various points of its course, of the progress to ruin in which it would involve the country, had never been fulfilled. At the time when the Bank restrictions commenced in 1797, many persons had indeed spoken in very strong terms, as men were apt to do, of the utter ruin attendant on such a course. For his part he had never used this strong language-but there were many intermediate stages between the injury and utter ruin of a country. In his opinion, all the predictions since 1797, in opposition to that of the right hon. gentleman, had been substantially fulfilled. The supporters of the measure had declared their belief, that the Bank would soon open again, and resume its payments in specie. This had been de nied, and the contrary affirmed, viz. That the Bank would never pay in gold so long as this law lasted. Which of these predictions had been verified? Some years ago, when the price of gold rose so high, and the course of exchange became so unfavourable, owing to the excessive issue of paper, it was said, on the one hand, that this mischief would be still worse; which, on the other hand, was denied. Whose prediction, in this case, he would again ask the right hon. gentleman, had been proved right? Their difficulties had increased. They were in a worse condition last year than ever they had been before. How, then, were their predictions falsified? The right hon. gentleman had told them, that no issues in other countries had ever resembled those of this. He agreed with him on this point-none had ever exactly | opinion on the value of the practical resembled. It was therefore, that the progress of the mischief had been and would be slower in this country than in any other. But its progress was, nevertheless, inevitable, and in the nature of things. It was true, if our foreign expenditure was much decreased-if our issues from the Bank were more provident and wise than they had been, the evil might be deferred; it might even disappear; but then, it must be a cessation of that system which the right hon. gentleman held to be necessary for the safety of the country. But though there was no exact resemblance between the paper currency of other countries, and that of Britain, there was, in many points, an agreement. There was an agreement in principle. The excessive issues from the Bank had rendered that company unable to fulfil its engagements to government and to the country. The Bank was, thereupon, compelled to put paper into issue to such a degree, as in its connection with government, caused that paper to become a government paper, and a forced government paper too! - It had nothing to pay its dividends with, but this forced government paper. The good sense of the country, the attention of parliament, and the good management of the directors of the Bank, might also add to those causes, which would retard the progress of the evil that had been predicted; but still, in principle, it resembled other countries, and the consequences were unavoidable. With regard to the extension of the measure to Ireland, there were one or two circumstances to which he begged leave to call the attention of the House. Ireland being much poorer than this country, and having a less capital, it might be supposed that when the bank of England could no longer make its payments in gold, the bank of Ireland must have been in a similar state. But the direct reverse was, to his own knowledge, the fact. At the time the bank of England suspended its payments in specie, the bank of Ireland was as competent, ready, and willing to pay in gold as it had ever been. When the intimation was received from the government in this country to stop these payments, the surprise was as great as had ever been excited. This he considered as one of the most just criterions by which to try the real state of the bank of England at that time and since. The right hon. gentleman had endeavoured to throw a ridicule upon an hon. gentleman for his (VOL. XXII.) standard existing in Ireland, to ascertain the real state of the depreciation of the paper currency. But the right hon. gentleman was altogether in error in supposing, that this standard varied from 5 to 20 per cent. on either side of a hedge, according to the pleasure or caprice of this or that landlord. That was not the case; and the rate per cent. never depended upon the will of any landlord. The capital of the country was the standard. In Dublin the buying and selling of gold was as common as that of broad cloth, or any other article. Much of it was bought for England, from whence a considerable proportion of it was, he believed, exported, and a considerable portion of it hoarded. Though he hoped he would be acquitted of being guilty of much egotism in that House, or of being apt to speak of himself, he would briefly state a circumstance of which he had been an eye-witness, to shew that it was this traffic which formed the standard, and not the fancy of landlords, as imagined by the right hon. gentleman. On the day he sailed for London, he went into one of these shops in which gold is purchased and sold in Dublin, and while there, a country woman came in to dispose of 11 or 12 guineas. She asked what was the premium, and was informed 5s. 6d. on each guinea, with which being satisfied, she received that sum in bank of Ireland notes, and the fractional parts in tokens. The person of the shop having gone out, another stated to him (Mr. P.) that the woman had been paid too little, as the premium ought to have been 6s. on each guinea. On the return of the shop-keeper, he had exchanged with him bank of Ireland notes for those of the bank of England, at the ordinary rate of exchange, which at that time amounted to about one penny, or three-halfpence in the pound. This was a decided proof of the depreciation of paper, in comparison with gold, and that the rate of that depreciation was as well ascertained in Ireland as the price of meat or bread. His advice, then, was-to let the thing take its own course with the two prices. The Bill, if he understood it right, went to enact, that if a debtor was sued, and paid the amount in Bank-notes into court, the creditor was compelled to receive them and pay costs. But suppose A owed B 100l. on bond, and was desirous to pay the money and get rid of the interest, A could not force B to re(P) ceive the payment in 100l. Bank-notes; and must continue to remain B's debtor, and pay him interest. This seemed to him to be a great absurdity. It was said, the measure was necessary; -he knew not the circumstances that made it so: it had not been called for by Ireland, save in one Petition from Belfast, presented by the noble lord, and he was convinced if that was looked into, that the signatures would be found to be more connected with the commercial than the landed interests. It had also been said, that there were oppressive landlords-he did not doubt but there might be persons of this description, but he could not think this a sufficient reason for forcing the currency of a country out of its natural state. There would be many inconveniencies in applying the measure to Ireland, as the circumstances of that country were very different from this. English gentlemen were not aware of the great difference that existed. In England, for instance, there were few perpetual leases, but in Ireland there were a great many. Numbers of gentlemen found their lands let for 900 or 099 years, and to compel them who had so little revenue out of their property, to receive it in depreciated paper, would be to subject them to great loss, and indeed to leave them scarcely any thing. Upon this class of private gentlemen, therefore, the hardship would be very great; for their situation did not at all resemble that of landlords in this country, whose leases were only for a few years, and who at every new bargain had a remedy in their own hands. The matter, as it affected Ireland, would be found, when they came to the committee, to be most complex and difficult, and the injustice to certain individuals greater than persons in this country could have any notion. He would give his negative to the second reading of this Bill, because he opposed it in principle, and this was the proper stage for that opposition. It was said to be popular, whether truly or not, he could not say. If popular here, however, he might assert, it would not be popular in Ireland; and he was convinced its popularity in this country arose from its nature and tendency not being understood. In his opinion, it was a most pernicious measure, and he would reserve to himself the right of contending against it hereafter, when it was subjected to more mature discussion, Mr. Marryatt thought that the measure would be a great oppression to the landlords of Ireland. He had heard from hon. PETITION FROM BLACKBURN RESPECTING THE ORDERS IN COUNCIL.] A Petition of several inhabitants of the town of Blackburn, in the county palatine of Lancaster, was presented and read; setting forth, "That the Petitioners beg leave to address the House in consequence of a Petition having been transmitted to the House from several inhabitants of the said town and neighbourhood, particularizing many grievances which those Petitioners are stated to labour under, and praying for a revocation of the Orders of Council, that the advantages of the East India trade shall be enjoyed without exclusion or limitation, and especially that measures towards the pacification of Europe may become the subject of the immediate deliberation of the House; and that, feeling for the credit of the town of Blackburn, and disapproving of many of the sentiments conveyed by the said Petition, they should consider themselves wanting in duty to the House, and also personally to themselves, were they not to state to the House, that the Petition to which they allude is not sanctioned by the inhabitants of the town at large, that it originated with individuals, by whom it was privately prepared, that the signatures to it have been industriously obtained by lodging the Petition in different parts of the town, where persons have been employed to procure them; and that many of the persons sub- | scribing the Petition have been induced by a representation that it would lead to a termination of the war, and without any consideration whether peace was attainable, except on terms which would probably produce our own subjugation; and that, though the Petitioners are anxious for, and deeply interested in, the revival of commerce, which by many is thought to have been greatly checked by the Orders in Council, yet, as they cannot fully see how far these Orders may bear upon and thwart the political views of our implacable and insidious enemy, they presume not to express a wish that the Orders should be rescinded, but trust that the united wisdom of the House will adopt such measures as may ultimately tend to the national prosperity; and that, though the Petitioners conceive that an open and unrestricted trade gives rise to a liberal competition, a generous emulation, and an increasing activity and exertion, yet they think it indecorous to dictate what ought to be done, in full confidence that the House will comply with the general wish respecting the East India Company's charter, and consult the general welfare; and that they lament, in common with the Petitioners before-mentioned, the horrors and calamities occasioned by war, and would be grateful for a re-establishment of public tranquillity; but, at the same time, they have the firmest reliance that no opportunity will be lost, or endeavours wanting, to cultivate a friendly intercourse with the united states of America, and to procure a general peace, upon terins of honour to the crown, being fully convinced that it is the earnest desire of the Prince Regent to relieve his Majesty's subjects from the burthens of an expensive war, to extend commerce, and to augment the prosperity and happiness of the kingdom." Ordered to lie upon the table. PETITION FROM THE SHIP BUILDERS OF LONDON RESPECTING THE EAST INDIA COMPANY.] Mr. Marryatt presented a Petition from several ship-builders in the port of London, setting forth, "That an attempt having been made, in the year 1795, to legalize Indian built ships, the jealousy and fears of the various classes dependant on ship-building in that port were so much excited and alarmed, that they petitioned the legislature against the Bill which had been brought into parliament for that purpose; and that the Petitioners were at that time informed the measure was to be limited and temporary, and accordingly an Act, the 35 Geo. 3, с. 115, was passed, authorizing, during the last war, and for eighteen months after its conclusion, ships not British built, arriving from the East Indies on account of the East India Company, to enter inwards and outwards if such ships were actually built within the Company's territories; and that similar attempts having been subsequently made, some of the Petitioners applied, in 1797, to his Majesty's then government on the subject, when they received the most positive assurances that the regular and China trade of the East India Company should be confined to British built ships; and that under this persuasion, and convinced of the sincerity of the assurances so given to them, the Petitioners were enabled to quiet the alarms of the industrious persons before-mentioned, who had at that time formed meetings, and had entered into resolutions expressive of their fears and dissatisfaction of the measure; indeed, the impression which it appeared to have made on their minds was such as if their existence depended on its total relinquishment and suppression; but on a pledge being given to them by the Petitioners, in conformity with the explanation they had received from his Majesty's then government, that the measure was partial and temporary, and that the Company's regular trade would be continued in British built ships, these artificers and others were pacified and prevailed on to return to their respective employments; and that, in perfect confidence and reliance on the solemn assurances so given to the Petitioners, they did not entertain any apprehension that further encouragement or extension would be given to the employment of Indian built ships by the East India Company beyond the partial and limited admission of them under the statute before-mentioned in their irregular trade, which is the first instance of the legislature recognizing, as the Petitioners be lieve, of Indian built ships; they therefore observed, with astonishment and dismay, the recent extension of India built ships in the Company's general service; and that the Petitioners beg leave to state, that they understand the East India Company have formed a systematic plan of building and equipping ships in the East Indies for their regular trade, and that, under some specious pretext or other, they have already taken up several Indian built ships for that service, besides giving encouragement for the building there of ships of lesser tonnage for sale in Great Britain; and the Petitioners have reason to believe, that in furtherance of this system, many sets of workmen, particularly rope-makers, taking with them the machinery now used in that manufacture, have quitted this country for India, where, in a few years, they will disseminate the know ledge they possess, to the manifest injury of the trade of this country; and that the fears of the Petitioners were increased from having found, in the course of 1809, that, with the trade and naval power of the country; and that on them, in a great measure, must depend their continuance, as the private yards, especially those in the port of London, are the great nurseries for the King's yards, yielding on the commencement, and affording in the progress of a war, a continual supply of ablebodied men for the public service, and, on the return of peace, an asylum for them when discharged from it; and that the Petitioners refrain from further observation on the impolicy of the introduction of Indian built ships into the Company's re by a clause introduced into an act of par-gular service, and into the general trade of liament, embracing other objects, which was passed in 1802, namely, 42 Geo. 3, c. 20, sec. 6, the admission of Indian built ships to entry in Great Britain, as before stated, has been extended, to continue in force during the Company's monopoly; and that it is under this Act the directors have taken up the Indian built ships before-mentioned for their regular trade, notwithstanding the reasons alleged by them in their third report of the 25th of March 1802 on the private trade, of the impolicy of employing ships of that description, and the Petitioners beg leave most respectfully to refer to the serious facts therein stated in favour of the employment of British built ships in the Company's service; and that the Petitioners were not aware of any intention to extend the provisions of the Act, first before-mentioned, otherwise they would have appealed to the legislature, on the latter occasion, for that protection which they now most humbly solicit of the House; and that, under these circumstances, the Petitioners, with the greatest deference and respect, venture to appeal to the House, as the crisis appears to them to have arrived when it is to be considered, whether the extensive establishments which have been formed within the port of London for ship-building, mast-making, rope-making, sail-making, and the various and numerous branches of trade and manufacture connected with them, in which are employed so many thousand individuals of the most estimable classes in a maritime country, are to be sacrificed to the interests of the settlers in India, and to a mistaken notion of economy which will ultimately prove as prejudicial to the Company as ruinous to the state; and that the Petitioners humbly presume it will be admitted that these establishments are not the production of a few years, but that they have gradually risen the country, and of having extensive marine establishments in the East, which must inevitably conduce to that species of colonization which has already proved so disastrous to Great Britain, it being evident, that the building equipment and employment of such ships will reverse the natural order of the Indian trade, estrange the affections of the persons engaged in it from the mother country, make India the commencement and termination of their voyages, and lay the foundation of a system which will render more equivocal and precarious the continuance of British influence and British power in that quarter of the globe; and that the Petitioners humbly hope that the legislature will, in future, confine, by statute, the regular and China trade of the East India Company to British built shipping, and that the permission granted to the East India Company by 42 Geo. 3, c. 20, sec. 6, may not be renewed or continued after the expiration of the period limited by that Act." Ordered to lie on the table. PETITIONS FROM PAISLEY, GLASGOW, KIRKALDY, AND KILMARNOCK, AGAINST THE RENEWAL OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.] A Petition of the magistrates and common council of the town of Paisley, in council assembled, was presented and read; setting forth, "That the charter of the united company of merchants of England trading to the East Indies being soon to expire, the Petitioners presume to express their sentiments on a subject peculiarly interesting to that populous and manufacturing district of the country, as well as to the nation in general: and that they, in common with the rest of their fellow subjects, conceive that they have a right to a free trade with all parts of the British empire, and other countries in amity with the |