titions; from quarters, to be sure, of the greatest weight, and entitled to the utmost deference and respect-the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge. With respect to the Cambridge Petition, I know nothing but what I gather from reading it. I know nothing of the manner in which it was procured; and cannot judge as to the degree in which it may be supposed to speak the sense of the University. But so far as I can understand the Petition itself, I really think that in agreeing to the motion now before the House, we should not be going against the prayer of this Petition: nay rather that by so doing, we should, in fact, comply with it. The learned authors of that Petition have acted under a mistake as to a matter of fact, which I suppose, must have proceeded from imperfectinformation. They apprehend that we are about to do that, which I trust we have no intention of doing, notwithstanding that my right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer so earnestly recommends it-to precipitate the measure of concession to the Roman Catholics by a Bill, before any inquiry by a committee or otherwise has been instituted upon it. This indeed my right hon. friend, and others, who are enemies to the measure of Catholic concession, have frequently recommended. The University of Cambridge probably had heard of this recommendation, and mistook the policy of the enemies of the measure for the intention of its friends. But they have been misled. This part therefore, and it is by far the most essential part of their Petition, applies to fears which have no existence: and I am happy to think that in declining to proceed by Bill, at my right hon. friend's suggestion, we have the countenance and authority of so learned and respectable a body. There are some passages in their Petition, however, wise no doubt in themselves, and conveying with mathematical accuracy to the initiated the grounds of their expressed apprehensions; but which I humbly confess that, -as we of Oxford are not so strict and scientific in our deductions, I entirely lose my logic in endeavouring to understand. They have discovered by some peculiar process, that the power of the Pope has become more redoubtable in proportion as he has been deprived of all dominion and influence in Europe. When he was in the full plenitude of power, and possessed an influ It is ence that extended over Christendom, we had, it seems, less to fear from him, and from his authority over the Catholics of Ireland, than now that he is a prisoner, in poverty and in chains! The fact may be so: but I humbly submit that it is not so self-evident a fact, but that even the most learned University might have condescended to exhibit the chain of reasoning by which it connected their premises with their conclusion: but I am willing to admit the fact, though I do not comprehend it. With another passage I beg leave to express my entire concurrence. that in which they state, or appear to intend to state, that even in papal times the constitution of this country was sufficiently guarded against papal encroachments by antient laws; - the laws, I presume they mean, of Provisors and Præmunire. It was so : and this is, as the University wisely suggests, a matter of infinite importance in considering the subject now before us. Upon the whole then, the Petition of the University of Cambridge appears to me highly favourable to the motion before the House. It sanctions the form of our proceedings by inference, if not in direct terms; since it deprecates a proceeding by Bill, which was the only alternative: -it suggests the possibility, the facility rather, of providing for the safety of our establishments, by reminding us that in former times we were safe even under Roman Catholic sovereigns against the Roman Catholic power:-and finally, by declaring the Pope to be at this moment in the most formidable state in which he can possibly be, it enables us to judge what is the utmost degree of danger to be apprehended from him; and puts to shame the exaggerated fears of those who would lead us to tremble at we know not what, that is to take place we know not when, and to be brought about we know not how. We have the authority of the University of Cambridge for believing that the danger from the Pope is at this moment at its height: and surely we all feel that at this moment it is not very formidable. As to the Petition of the University of Oxford, I must in the first place declare, in contradiction to assertions and insinuations which I have heard both on this, and on the former night of the debate, that upon authority the most respectable and indisputable, I am enabled to deny that there was any unfair practice made use of to obtain this Petition either by in 1037] on the Roman Catholic Claims-Adjourned Debate. APRIL 24, 1812. fluence, or by surprise. Due notice was given of the intention to bring forward. A more than usually ample discussion took place upon it. A large majority concurred in voting it. And the Petition must be considered as containing as genuine an expression of the sense of that venerable body, as any public act of theirs that ever was framed. Sir, for the sense of the University of Oxford, thus deliberately expressed, I shall always entertain a filial reverence. I shall be always happy to conform my public conduct to it, when a strong and conscientious impulse of public duty does not carry me another way. I respect and applaud the natural and just anxiety for the established constitution in Church and State which the University of Oxford cherishes with characteristic fidelity, and which she inspires (and long may she inspire!) into the youth committed to her charge. This sentiment is eminently displayed in the Petition now upon our table: but it is displayed with a moderation and good sense, equal to its zeal and fervency; and in a manner which, while it entitles the prayer of the Petition itself to greater, and more respectful attention, leaves those who are the most anxious to testify that attention, at liberty, without suspicion of disrespect, to differ as to the mode which is pointed out in the Petition, for securing the object which we must all equally have in view. I observe with pleasure the judicious and considerate qualification which the words " in our judgment" (or words to that effect) give to the proposition laid down in the Petition, that the present laws against the Roman Catholics are not more than sufficient for securing our present happy constitution. This proposition is, as it ought to be, stated as matter of opinion. It is no disrespect to those who hold that opinion to say that as such it may be liable to be varied by a more accurate | knowledge than they may at present happen to possess, of the actual state of the laws, the sufficiency or excess of which is in question, and judging from the degree of knowledge which people in general possess, which I myself possessed, or found others possessing, of the state of these laws (before the agitation of the present question made them matter of particular inquiry) I impute nothing disparaging to the resident members of the University of Oxford, whose ordinary researches and habits of life do not lead them to a very [1038 careful examination of the statute-book, I do not feel therefore that I am con- In giving my vote for a committee to ascertain the state of the laws affecting the Roman Catholics, I do so in the persuasion that the time is come when that subject must be taken into consideration; when we can no longer turn away from it, or dispose of it upon grounds distinct from the subject itself; -when the obstacles which have hitherto disinclined us from looking at it being removed, we must fairly make up our minds to take some step towards putting ourselves in a situation to come to a final decision upon it. And whatever be the authorities which are opposed to that decision, I cannot suffer them to deter me from a vote this night, in which, had Mr. Pitt been now Bradshaw, hon. A. C. Hippisley, sir J. C. Burdett, sir F. happily living, I entertain a most sincere conviction that Mr. Pitt would this night have concurred. Mr. Stuart Wortley (amidst the general cry of Question, question.)-Sir, I rise only for one moment, to ask a question of the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Ponsonby), whether at the time he made his communication to the Catholics of Ireland, he was himself lord chancellor of Ireland, and the duke of Bedford lord lieutenant. Mr. Ponsonby. I was at the time lord chancellor of Ireland, and the noble duke lord lieutenant. Mr. Stuart Wortley. Then, Sir, I can only say, that under those circumstances, such a communication was, in my opinion, to say the best of it, a piece of high indiscretion. But, however, convinced as I am of the necessity of going into the proposed enquiry without delay, I shall give my vote for the motion. Mr. Grattan waved his right of replying, observing, that the right hon. gentleman who had lately sat down, (Mr. Canning) had so ably, and so eloquently answered every argument against the motion, that he should hurt the cause, was he to add another word to his eloquent oration. The Question being loudly called for, the House divided, when there appeared, Ayes 215; Noes 300. Majority against going into a committee on the Catholic Claims, 85.-Adjourned at half-past six, Saturday morning. Coke, E. Knight, Robt. Lambton, R. Colbourne, N. W. R. Knox, hon. T. Daly, rt. hon. D. B. Dillon, hon. H. A. Duncannon, visc. Dundas, C. Dundas, hon. L. Eden, hon. G. Elliot, rt. hon. W. Ellis, C. R. Evelyn, L. Fellowes, hon. N. Ferguson, R. C. Fitzgerald, A. Fitzgerald, rt. hon. M. Fitzroy, lord C. Foley, J. Folkes, sir M. Langton, col. Leach, J. Lemon, C. Lemon, J. Latouche, J. Latouche, R. Lamb, hon. W. Lester, B. L. Lloyd, sir E. Lloyd, J. M. Longman, G. Lyttleton, hon. W. Maddocks, W. A. Mahon, hon. S. Matthew, hon. M. Maule, hon. W. Freemantle, W. (Tel- Moore, P. ler) Gell, P. Grant, G. M. Greenhill, R. Hanbury, W. Herbert, hon. W. Hibbert, G. Bourne, W. S. Campbell, lord J. Cavendish, lord G. Cavendish, H. Chaloner, R. Canning, rt. hon. G. Canning, G. Calvert, N. Craig, J. Clonmell, earl Cowper, hon. L. S. Cockerell, sir C. Cocks, J. Coke, T. W. Horner, F. Howard, Henry Howarth, H. Hughes, W. L. Hobhouse, B. Herbert, H. Α. Hamilton, H. Kensington, lord Morpeth, visc. Mostyn, sir Thos. Newport, rt. hon. sir John Neville, hon. R. North, D. O'Brien, sir E. Pelham, hon. C. Prendergast, M. Ponsonby, rt. h. Geo. Parnell, H. Poyntz, W.S. Price, R. Prittie, hon. F. Quinn, hon. Windham Ridley, sir M. W. Romilly, sir S. French merchant, was it to be supposed that he would not still continue the system? Earl Bathurst observed, that the right hon. Vice President of the Board of Trade had publicly contradicted the use of the expression which had been attributed to him, and which had been mentioned by the noble lord. The Earl of Lauderdale contended, that the public contradiction of the right hon. gentleman, amounted only to this, that he had been hardly dealt with, with respect to the expression attributed to him, but not to a denial of the expression itself. INFORMATIONS EX-OFFICIO.) Lord Holland adverted to the motion he formerly made relative to Informations Ex Officio, and stated his object now to be, to present a Bill or Bills to the House relative to this The following gentlemen paired off in extraordinary and anomalous mode of contest, had not the governor most unfor-encountered in the course of the siege; but, favour of Mr. Grattan's Motion. HOUSE OF LORDS. ORDERS IN COUNCIL.) The Earl of Derby presented a Petition from the merchants, traders, &c. of Liverpool, against the Orders in Council. His lordship stated, that 6,000 signatures were attached to the Petition, and observed, that he was authorised by the deputation from whom he received the Petition, to state, that they did not conceive that the Declaration recently issued by his Majesty's government would have the effect of at all relieving the distresses which the petitioners suffered in consequence of the operation of the Orders in Council. The Petition was ordered to lie on the table. The Earl of Lauderdale adverting to the object of the Petition, observed, that the right hon. gentleman who was the Vice President of the Board of Trade, (Mr. Rose,) had in a conference with a deputa. tion of manufacturers upon the subject stated, that England and France were like two persons with their heads in two pails of water, and the trial must be which could stand drowning the longer. The Declaration issued by ministers made the continuance of this system depend upon the pleasure of Buonaparté, and if he thought he saw the English merchant was more in danger of drowning than the (VOL. XXII.) proceeding. He was not, however, fully prepared, and he therefore merely now mentioned the subject, that he might not be thought to be acting unfairly if he introduced his intended measure at a very short notice. VOTE OF THANKS TO THE EARL OF WELLINGTON, &c. FOR THE CAPTURE OF BADA Joz.) The Earl of Liverpool rose, pursuant to notice, to move the Thanks of the House to the Earl of Wellington, and those divisions of the army which were concerned in the capture of Badajoz. In calling their lordships' attention to this gallant exploit, it was hardly necessary for him to observe, that the operation combined in itself the two circumstances which had always been considered as constituting the best title to the honour of their lordships" thanks, first, the importance of the object, and next the magnitude of the effort, and the obstinacy of the resistance encountered. If they looked at the military history of Badajoz in this as well as in former wars in the peninsula, they would find, that situated on the southwest frontier of Spain, this fortress had always been regarded as an object of primary importance. In former wars it had stood many severe sieges; and it was somewhat singular, that the efforts then made to reduce it had never been successful. In the year 1658, when the struggle for Portuguese independence took place, this fortress was deemed an important object for the Portuguese, and it was accordingly attacked with vigour. The Portuguese were more than four months in prosecuting the siege (3X) -they lost half their army, and, after all, the attempt proved unavailing, and the enterprise was abandoned. In the war of 1705, generally known by the name of the Succession War, Badajoz was besieged by the English, Dutch, and Portuguese troops, under the command of an ancestor of a noble lord whom he had in his eye. A most gallant effort was made on that occasion; and had it not been for particular circumstances, it would in all probability have been successful: but in 14 days from the opening of the trenches, the attempt was unavoidably given up as hopeless. In the course of the present war in the peninsula, also, Badajoz had been considered as an object of the greatest military importance: Their lordships might remember, that in the early part of the last year, the place was attacked by the French under the command of marshal Soult. They broke ground on the 3d of Feb. and met with a most gallant resistance on the part of the governor, and the troops under his command. The resistance would, in all probability, have been effectual, or the capture of the place would have at least been so long delayed, as to have contributed essentially to ultimate success in the could not have been carried on without great loss. In the present year, after the capture of Ciudad Rodrigo, lord Wellington determined with the first opportunity to direct his efforts against Badajoz. It was fairly to be contemplated, that the French would do every thing in their power to obstruct these sieges; and, therefore, it was an object of the utmost importance to get possession of the fortresses, in as short a time as possible from the commencement of the operations. Their lordships had already had an opportunity of expressing their opinion upon the siege of Ciudad Rodrigo. That place had been taken with a rapidity altogether unparalleled, and utterly astonishing even to the enemy, whose commander had calculated that he would have been in time enough for its relief, if he arrived there at a period, which turned out to be nine or ten days subsequent to the date of its capture. The exertions made in the siege of Badajoz were not less extraordinary than those which distinguished the attacks upon Ciudad Rodrigo. Their lordships had seen the proofs of the strenuous resistance made on that occasion, of the difficulties tunately died early in the month of March; and whether from the misconduct of his successor, or from some more serious cause, on the 11th of March the fortress capitulated. But even here it was to be observed, that the French under the able experienced leader whom he had mentioned, had not made themselves masters of the place till after a siege of 36 days. At a subsequent period, their lordships knew Badajoz had been attacked by lord Wellington when the French collected their troops from all quarters of the peninsula. Their northern army, which they called the army of Portugal, the southern army, the troops employed in the eastern parts of the peninsula, and detachments from the garrison of Madrid, all assembled to force the allied army to raise the siege, or risk a general battle for the protection of its operations. With such a force advancing against him, lord Wellington did not feel it prudent to continue the siege and give battle to the enemy at the same time; and therefore with the greatest judgment and propriety resolved to abandon the place. The siege could not then have been renewed till the month of June, a season of the year when, from the unhealthiness of that part of the country, the operations notwithstanding every opposition, in 12 days from the opening of the trenches, the place was in the possession of the British army. In looking at the circumstances attending this noble effort, it was impossible for any heart not to feel a glow of admiration at the skill and decision of the commander, and the gallantry of the officers and troops. The conduct of general Picton had inspired a confidence in the army, and exhibited an example of science and bravery which had been surpassed by no other officer. His exertions in the attack on the 6th could not fail to excite the most lively feelings of admiration. It appeared that three practicable breaches had been made, that the enemy had expected the attack to be made by these breaches, and had employed every imaginable means for effectual resistance. That resistance, (he had this from an eyewitness,) was one of the most formidable efforts that had perhaps ever been made in any war. Their lordships, indeed, might judge of the nature of that effort, when they considered its effect upon troops certainly not liable to be deterred by difficulties in the execution of any hazardous enterprize, whatever might be the obstacles to be surmounted. On the one |